Academy for Torah Initiatives and Directions

Students at Risk
Substance Abuse in Yeshivot:
Jewish Education Facing the Challenge
Sunday, April 30, 2000

Session II: Educational Views

Mrs.  Shonny Solow:  Shalom.  I am the dean at Machon Gold, and I have been asked to chair this session.  When I got the invitation from ATID, I was probably the first person to respond, because I was so pleased to see that initiative had been taken to discuss a topic which had been taboo for so many of us.  Despite all of the openness of the discussion, this is still very much a taboo topic, for many of the reasons that were mentioned this afternoon: a school’s image, a fear of reputation, and everything else that we all deal with on a daily basis in our schools.  Nevertheless, I think that it is wonderful that so many people got together to discuss the problem.  Hopefully, some attempt at a solution will come out of this discussion, as well.  
A little over a month ago, when my sons came home from their high school and yeshiva on Purim, I got a little bit of a jolt from the things that we need to worry about in the yeshiva world here in Israel.  I have one son in a yeshiva high-school and another son who is in a yeshivat hesder [post-high school yeshiva which combines military service with Torah study].  The son in high school was complaining when he came home from his school’s Purim hagigah.  This was not the seudah [holiday meal, where there may be a halakhic obligation to drink].  He was tired of being the listener for all of his confessing drunk friends. It was unpleasant to be in a yeshiva atmosphere where they were rolling out the cases of vodka all night. My son is between the ages of thirteen and eighteen.  My other son got in very late.  When I asked him what happened he explained that he had spent a good part of the night at Terem [a Jerusalem medical clinic] with his roommate, who had been so drunk that they were concerned for his health.  So he, as the designated driver, drove him to Terem and took care of him for the night.  So much for the Purim experience in yeshivas in Israel!  When we talk about substance abuse, people say that the problem is one in Israel as well as in America.  Certainly, from my vantage point, it is a problem that we all have to deal with, and it is a problem that exists not only on Purim, but every day.  Barukh HaShem [thank God], there are people here this evening who are willing to discuss the problem.  
Our speakers are going to look at the question of what the problem really is.  We have heard the clinical perspective, and now we are going to hear from the educators in yeshivot.  How do they define the problem?  Before we define the problem, we can’t possible solve it.  The three speakers for the evening, in the order in which they will speak, are, Dr. Caroline Peyser, who is a Ram [Talmud teacher] at Midreshet Lindenbaum, as well as a psychologist in private practice; Rabbi David Ebner, who is the Mashgiah Ruhani [spiritual guidance counselor] at Yeshivat HaMivatar; and Rabbi Yisroel Blumenfeld, who is the Mashgiah Ruhani of Yeshivat Neve Tzion in Telz Stone.  The format of the evening is as follows: each of the speakers will be given approximately fifteen minutes to present their views, after which we will be happy to entertain questions from all of you.  At the end of the evening, each of the speakers will be given a chance to sum up as well.  
Dr. Caroline Peyser: I am hoping that the three of us are actually talking about different programs, different populations to some degree.  Rather than conflicting, we will hopefully be complimenting each other. 
I’m going to be talking about the experience that I have at Midreshet Lindenbaum, and there are three points that I would like to make at the outset.  The first is that there is a difference between men’s yeshivot and women’s yeshivot, when looking at this problem.  First of all, drinking is much more prevalent among men, in both the general population as well as in the religious population.  Alcoholism is much more prevalent among men.  I think that this is true in the yeshivot as well.  The meaning of drinking for girls and for boys is different.  If you hear that your son, or one of your male students, got drunk on Purim, he is part of a large majority.  If you hear that a female student got drunk on Purim, many of us would be somewhat taken aback, because it is not the common practice.  There is a different psychological meaning when a female student does the same thing as a guy does. The attitudes in the general society, and specifically in the religious society, are different as well.
The second point that I would like to make was made earlier, but I would like to reiterate it. As with every problem, we have to keep in mind the context in which this problem is taking place.  It is important to keep in mind the point in life that they are at.  They have just left home.  Physically they have just left home.  But everything that is going on at home is going with them. It is important to keep that in mind.  Leaving their parents’ home for the first time is a major transition point.  Lots of issues come up as a result of that.  Generally, problems which they had beforehand continue.  They take the problems with them to Israel.  Many parents wish or hope that, if the child has a serious problem, going to Israel will straighten them out.  They might not indicate the problem on the school’s application forms.  They hope that the child will be accepted, so that he can get a fresh start.  Most of us who have experience with this know that that the start is not entirely fresh.  They bring the problem with them.  Issues that are going on at home affect the students when they come to Israel.  In understanding whatever issues come up for the students, it is important to understand the context that preceded it.  What’s been going on at home?  What was going on in their family, etc?  In my experience, the students who have the most difficulty adjusting to their one year in Israel are not the students who get along well with their families, as we might think.  Rather, it is the students who have problems back at home, whether it be a parent’s illness, a parent who is being treated for cancer, marriage problems, etc.  That is the second point that I would like to make.
The third point that I would like to make is to distinguish between different forms of drinking or substance abuse.  I am not going to go into the clinical distinctions. Those distinctions were already made earlier.  I do claim that there is a difference in terms of educational approach between substance abuse - be it drugs or alcohol, whether it is at the level of abuse, dependence, or addiction - and between the rule that exists in the one year yeshivot that a student is not allowed to be in a bar.  A student goes into a bar to drink Kahlua.  A student who just turned eighteen, and goes out with six friends to drink one beer because they have to do something to mark the fact that now they are of legal age.  They decide to go out and get one drink.  That has to be distinguished from drinking which is a regular ongoing problem – or even a one time occurrence, but the student comes back drunk, blacks out, etc.  Certainly for a girl, that is very unusual behavior in terms of norms.  This is not the same as the rule the a student is not allowed to be in a bar.  I think that those two things have very different psychological meanings, and they have to be addressed differently from an educational point of view.  Obviously the drinking, substance abuse, or dependence is a sign of distress.  In and of itself this is a serious problem that can be life threatening, and it is a signal of underlying distress that needs to be addressed.  These are the three points I would like to start with.  
Now, I would like to go into details about these two different levels.  For the purpose of discussion, I will limit it to alcohol abuse, and different approaches to it.  As I mentioned, alcohol abuse, or even drinking once to the point of drunkenness, is a serious problem.  First and foremost, it is a serious health problem.  At its worst, it can lead to death.  I’m specifically focusing on a female population, a girl who gets drunk once in a bar can easily be taken home, can be raped.  One time! That is it!  She can get AIDS after just one incident.  It could be life threatening.  It has to be taken quite seriously.  Incidents like this have occurred in yeshivot.  A girl went to a bar, got drunk, and slept with someone.  Maybe she did not get AIDS, thankfully, but it had very serious consequences for her wellbeing and mental health.  
Where we are talking about a very serious psychological problem, it has to be treated as one would treat any serious psychological problem.  Just like – and I will give other examples – anorexia.  There are different views on how to treat anorexia, but take a classic case of anorexia.  This is not something to be fooled around with.  It is not something the girl is going to grow out of.  It needs professional help.  Often, the student needs to be sent home to get the professional help in the context of his family.  The family is involved.  The family is aware of the problem, and the family can be part of the treatment of the problem.  The same thing is true of substance abuse.  The same thing is true of serious depression, where there is a risk.  If they can be treated here, and get anti-depressant medications with a positive result, that is one thing.  But if there is a serious problem that is life threatening, in many cases a student has to be sent home.  Not as a punishment.  This is one of the key differences.  What is our attitude toward this kind of problem?  Is it a punishment?  Is it something to be ashamed of?  Or is it an illness?  That is a very big distinction.  A punishment, throwing a student out, vs. an illness which needs treatment.  
Often, I don’t think the school is equipped to treat the problem. I think you will hear different points of view about this from different panelists.  The different schools are differently equipped.  Meaning, the population that generally comes to certain schools is one where drug or substance abuse is something that the average student knows very little about.  He is shocked to hear that it goes on.  When the student’s roommate comes home stone drunk several times, this puts the roommate under a great deal of stress.  It is something that, in general, the school is not equipped to deal with.  That is not their general population.  Such a school would do the student a service by sending him home for treatment.  Alternatively, at times they should send him to another school that specializes in such a population, and is better equipped to deal with such a problem.  I don’t think that there is anything wrong with recognizing that not every school is equipped to deal with every problem, and not every school services every population.  Again, it is important to stress the difference between punishment and treatment.  Throwing a student out for severe psychological problems is the wrong attitude.  It is not about being punished; it is about being treated.  
I would differentiate also on a second level.  Students go out and drink.  They don’t have a drinking problem, but they go out to have a beer every so often.  It is a psychological issue of a different type.  It is an anti-authority issue.  These are students who might not have even wanted to come to Israel for the year, but were pushed by their parents to come.  I don’t know if it is a relatively recent phenomenon, but it is certainly increasing.  There are students in the school who do not want to be there.  Their parents force them to come to Israel.  These students, in my experience, will find ways to get sent home.  Meaning that they might go and deliberately break a school rule several times until somebody actually notices, and they will get themselves kicked out.  And everybody’s response – well not everybody, but the parents and the community that hears about this – is, “How can the school do this?!  It is their educational responsibility,” etc.  Perhaps the students themselves might not realize that they are getting kicked out on purpose.  Some of them do realize it.  Some of them don’t.  They don’t want to be in Israel.  They could not get the message across to their parents, so they get themselves thrown out.  That is the case for some students.  Not all students, but some.  For others, it is a general anti-authority trend. The schools should deal with this just as they would treat other educational issues.  We are all familiar with the issues that come up: the good of the individual, vs. the influence on the rest of the school; the reputation that the school acquires as a result of this; and who they are going to attract in the future.  These are all very real concerns.  While we might want to think only about the benefit for each individual student, that is not the way it works.  There is an atmosphere in the school which the school wants to maintain.  It might be better for the school not to have such a student.  In our school, we had a case of several students who were kicked out for drinking.  There were different degrees of problem, but for some of them it was an anti-authority issue, anti-being there.  Some were not in the right school.  Some of them transferred to another school, a school for ba’alei teshuvah [people new to Orthodoxy], where their specific needs were addressed in a better way than in our school.  There is nothing wrong with that.  It is not a failure of our school.  I think that the student’s needs were better addressed in the other school.  I would emphasize this one thing, which not everybody realizes.  Sometimes when students get themselves get kicked out for breaking the rules, they wanted to get kicked out, and they wanted to get sent home.  The parents and the community sometimes miss this.
The third category includes those students who I would call innocent.  We had a case several years ago, near the beginning of the year.  It happened to occur during aseret yemei teshuvah [the ten days of penitence, between Rosh HaShanah and Yom Kippur], so it it stirred up the staff a little bit more.  Six students went out for somebody’s birthday.  They went and they bought six beers, and went to one of the parks to drink them.  One of our faculty happened to be in the neighborhood [laughter] and spotted them, so they got into trouble.  These six girls do not have a drinking problem.  We don’t suspect that they would have a drinking problem.  We have heard from them subsequently.  They got a very stern lecture about why the school sees drinking as a value that stands counter to what we are trying to teach, about why they can’t do it again, about why they are being put on probation, etc.  I don’t think that this is a psychological issue.  I don’t think this was even necessarily an anti-authority issue.  Here it was strictly a case of breaking school rules.  All the conditions or considerations that come up when someone breaks a school rule should be taken into consideration in this case as well.  Meaning, when they break a school rule, it depends on the individual case.  If they are kids who generally seem motivated, or someone who has the potential to put in, but are sort of testing, then you cut them slack.  You give them a chance.  You put them on probation, or whatever.  You do whatever you do.  There are others whom you are looking for an excuse to kick out, because you saw that they were in the wrong place or they were a bad influence on everyone else.  Then you come down much harder on them.  So, I would distinguish between these categories.  
The last thing is how to educate? How do you get the message of the dangers of alcohol across?  To tell a kid that you can’t be in a bar because you are going to get pregnant.  Well, they don’t buy it.  It’ s true.  I don’t blame them.  That is not what we tell them, of course.  That is what they hear. They miss the middle step, and then connect the two, and say that we said that if you go into a bar you get pregnant.  There are a few steps in between [laugher].  
But, I do want to suggest two things.  One relates to the more serious problem, the substance abuse.  That needs to be addressed in the school.  I would suggest something that we did in Midreshet Lindenbaum for several years on the issue of eating disorders.  We had a health night.  In the course of the health night. we had someone speak about nutrition, someone speak about exercise, someone speak about mental health issues, and somebody speak about eating disorders.  They were also told - and they are told at the beginning of the year as well - who is the person or people who are available to deal with these kinds of problems.  Students need to know where to go.  Such a health night is important for another reason.  Not only for the student with the problem to know where to turn.  But also for their friends to know where to turn.  Usually the friends are the ones who know about the eating disorder, and the depression, and the substance abuse.  They need to hear that if their friend has such a problem, it is a serious issue.  Coming to tell someone on the administration is not tattling, is not being a bad friend, and is not going to get his or her friend kicked out in the negative sense.  Rather, it is taking responsibility, and taking the necessary step to protect the friend.  That is a very important part of why such a health night would be important and useful.  Not only for the one with the problem.  Often the one with the problem denies it.  But their friends know, and they need to know where to go.  They need to know that it is ok to tell.  They need also to see that the school has an open attitude toward it.  The school is a place that is open to dealing with such a problem, and open to dealing with it in a way that is not punitive, for the most part.  That is what I would say with regard to the more serious psychological problems.
With regard to the rule itself of not going into bars: that is an educational issue that has to do with our values.  I would address it in mussar schmuze [lecture on religious ethics and values], and in the same ways we deal with other issues like that.  That is the appropriate place.  But these two issues have to be distinguished.  
R. David Ebner: I’m probably going to repeat some of the things that have been said before,  but I want to stick to what I prepared.  Of course, since Dr. Peyser ended with a mussar schmuze, we all bear in mind the beginning of the Mesilat Yesharim, which says that it is not the saying, but the re-saying that counts. 
The blurb written about this session in the ATID flyer speaks about facing policy and developing policy.  It seems to me that the issue of policy, for which there is an educational view, is an issue which affects those people who are running the school.  That may differ from school to school.  In some schools it is the Rosh Yeshiva [yeshiva dean]; in other schools it is the board.  In some few schools, there may be a democracy of the faculty.  The policy will be set at that level.  For some people here who are Rashei Yeshiva, or perhaps principals, they will set the policy.  For many people who are faculty - and perhaps not working in a one-man-(or one woman)-one-vote place - their problem involves the hands-on practice.  What do you do with the kid who has confided in you?  What do you do when you have figured out that the kid is using, despite the mass of hiding and deception?  What do you do on an ad hoc basis?  It seems to me that, first of all, part of the value of what we have done here today is just to find out the basic information.  What are the signs?  What are the symptoms?  What should we be looking for?  That is number one.  Number two, to know that for many of these kids, the most important thing you can do is simply to speak with them.  Simply to speak with them!  
I remember that many years ago an organization was founded dealing with integrating learning disabled children into yeshivot.  It was called P’tach.  When P’tach was founded, it was very difficult.  There were financial issues, and it was a financial drain on the community to provide for these special children.  Nonetheless, there was a great deal of support, because these children were, after all, seen as victims.  They were not at fault.  Well, this is the problem that we are dealing with.  Are these kids that we are meeting - who are not merely involved in substance use, but substance abuse - are they victims or are they the bad kids?  You, as a faculty member, may see them as the bad kids, not as the victim, not as the kid who needs to talk to somebody, who - as has been mentioned - may be using drugs in order to gain attention.  Whether they want to be thrown out or whether they just want somebody to talk to is an issue.  But you don’t necessarily have to solve all their problems.  You don’t have to become a professional.  That’s what professionals are for.  You are not going to find all the answers for dealing with drug abuse, I dare say, in the Mesilat Yesharim.  It has been said that reading books can also be helpful.  Speaking to professionals, people with experience, can also be helpful.  But first and foremost, right in the trenches and on the firing line, just speak with these kids.  Just speak with these kids!  Take an interest in them. 
Furthermore, we as educators, having brought this matter out of the closet, can now become advocates to the wider community.  After all, if it does not take place in my yeshiva, I can not be an advocate of solving the problem.  If it takes place in my yeshiva, in the best of yeshivas, in yeshivas whose names can not even be mentioned because it is unimaginable that there might be drug abuse there, then we can all participate in a joint effort.  
Now, to step back for a moment and to throw a caveat, this is something that should be done, although it would require funding.  We have spoken about the problem.  I’m not sure that the sale of 50,000 copies of the Jewish Observer - although it is certainly interesting - tells me anything about the incidence of the problem.  It doesn’t tell me about the etiology.  It doesn’t tell me about the social-geographic distribution of the problem.  It doesn’t tell me which kids are at-risk, and so on and so forth.  Therefore, those dirty words, a sociological study.  It is not an easy study to do, but it is a study that can be done.  It should be done.  It would be valuable to all of us if it were done.  What is happening in the high schools?  What is happening in the yeshivot in Israel?  Furthermore, what happens with these kids in the long term?  Is it possible that many of the kids simply work it out, and become upstanding members of their community.  At worst – and maybe it is pretty bad – they join the kiddush club, which doesn’t seem to be addressed as a problem.  
It would be helpful - and we have begun it here today to some extent - to gain instruction for faculty members and for madrikhim [dorm counselors].  Particularly for madrikhim!  They should be taught to recognize the signs, and to recognize what they can deal with and where they should gain further advice or pass it on.  When we originally planned the conference, I suggested a very helpful thing.  We should either begin the conference or end the conference with a field trip.  We would just walk out of here and go over to Yoel Solomon Street, or to Ben Yehudah Street, to whatever bar you chose to go into, and to actually see what is going on.  This is actually where eino domeh shemiah lereiah [hearing is not the same as seeing].  I was once early for an appointment downtown, so I strolled down Ben Yehudah, and I saw everything I had only heard about.  
Now, I have also been with yeshiva students who refused to walk on Ben Yehudah, for good reason.  They had been told that they are thrown out of the yeshiva if they are on Ben Yehudah, if they are even found on Ben Yehudah.  There is some logic in that.  That is the logic of zero tolerance.  Being found on Ben Yehuda.  Going into a bar.  Actually drinking.  Drinking how much?  A one strike policy.  It is very attractive.  It is very simple.  I don’t think that it really solves anything.  In order to implement that policy, we would have to have unity of purpose as educators in Israel.  That is, if the zero tolerance policy is to work, then the students can’t be accepted in another yeshiva. 
This takes me to something else, an impression that I gained from speaking to kids about their experiences with the use of drugs, and about their attitude toward faculty and administration in yeshiva high schools in America.  They have a sense that while the administration may know, the administration may not want to know.  Don’t let us know, because if we know…  Take Dr. Peyser’s example of the girls in the park. Unfortunately the teacher was walking in the park where the girls were drinking beer, and the teacher couldn’t hide.  So then the teacher knows, and the administration knows, and then we have to throw you out.  And we don’t really want to do that, because then somebody will start arguing that X was doing it, or Y was doing it, or Z was doing it.  We are going to have to throw them all out.  And that will not be good for recruitment, or for tuition.  That issue has already been referred to.  In fact, I was having a conversation with a psychologist yesterday, a very bright person.  I suggested that catching the students who were drinking would affect the funds that yeshivas have, and so on so forth.  The person said, “I can’t believe that yeshiva people and Jewish education would be so venal.”  I explained that it is not a great amount of money we are being venal about [laughter].  I said that I can believe it, in any case. 
The argument of the bad apple.  This takes us to the issue that you have in the teshuvah [responsa] of R. Moshe Feinstein [Iggrot Moshe, Yoreh De’ah 3, #35].  R. Moshe doesn’t actually mention this.  I will mention it briefly.  Regarding the  ben sorer umoreh [the rebellious son, who is condemned to death, Devarim 21] the Torah says “lema’an yishme’u veyira’u” [in order that they will hear and will see, Devarim 21:21].  The Ramban explains, “Ki lo humat begodel heto” But, “Kidei leyaser bo et harabim, veshelo yihiyeh taqalah leaherim”” [He is not killed due to the severity of his sin, but in order that the masses will be tormented, so that others will not come to fail. Ramban’s commentary on Devarim 21:18]. I think that the kids have learned that they can not trust administrations.  They can’t talk to principals, and sometimes they can’t talk to teachers.  Therefore, there is nowhere to turn.  This really is the problem. There are basically five arguments in this teshuvah.  You should look at it very carefully.  Basically, the model of ben sorer umoreh becomes the model for what Rav Moshe has to say for his prohibition of marijuana.  R. Moshe was addressing a problem that he felt to be a keen problem for yeshiva students.  I am not bringing a proof from what R. Moshe doesn’t say.  But, R. Moshe does not say that the student should be thrown out.  Maybe for some people it may be obvious that they should be expelled.  But R. Moshe doesn’t say it.  I will share with you a story that relates to a different kind of abuse, smoking cigarettes.  This is an issue which R. Moshe was less critical of.  However, this was a case where the woman was smoking cigarettes in the bathroom on shabbat.  Well, that becomes more serious.  The husband went to R. Moshe and asked him whether or not he must divorce his wife.  R. Moshe said, “No.  You are not obligated to divorce your wife.”  As he was leaving, he said to R. Moshe, “But Rebbe [teacher], what should I do?”  R. Moshe said, “You should love your wife more.”  That was R. Moshe’s answer.  I heard this from the people involved in the story.  We have this issue with our students, who are our children.  
Maybe somebody can tell me how, but I don’t know of any way to convince a kid not to use marijuana.  I know I can scare him.  But I don’t know how to convince him.  It seems to me that certain social psychological studies indicate that experimenting with things and exploring things might be done by at least some primates, even at great risk.  The issue that we are dealing with is a kid who is in trouble.  A kid who – for those of us who remember the song –really wants the Tambourine Man because he “ain’t got no place he’s going to at all.”  As the song ends, “Let me forget about today until tomorrow.  And every tomorrow will become a today.”  That is the kid we are dealing with.  For that kid, the struggle is a long and hard one.  A long and hard one.  It begins in the trust that he has to establish with the rebbe, with the teacher, perhaps with the administration.  
One final note.  We are talking about this as a problem.  Obviously if R. Moshe had not prohibited the use of drugs, if the teshuvah in Iggrot Moshe had said no problem, we would not be talking about this. R. Moshe prohibited it.  R. Moshe based the prohibition on ben sorer umoreh, and the related issue of qedoshim tihiyu [be holy, from VaYikra 19:2]. I refer you again to Ramban’s commentary on that pasuq [verse]; it is all one thing.  The prohibition based on qedoshim tihiyu is no small matter.  In other words, how do you educate people?  What do you say to people?  What sugya do you learn with people that is going to make them be holy?  It is no small matter.  You can’t just tell them a story.  We all know that the Hafetz Hayyim didn’t use drugs.  We all know that the Hafetz Hayyim was a very holy person.  The logical connection might follow.  Or, if the kid knows the sugya [topic] of taqfo kohen [the priest who seizes priestly gifts to which he may not be entitled].  But qedoshim tihiyu, lifnim meshurat hadin [beyond the letter of the law], that kind of level of behavior, is no small matter.  It is much easier, as we all know, to get a kid to change his dress, to say a long shemonah ‘esreh [a prayer], than to change the basic nature of his personality to be holy.  If drugs are prohibited because we lack in qedoshim tihiyu, we might begin to ask about other areas in which the community isn’t bothered by a lack of qedoshim tihiyu.  In other words, we are talking about kids going to Ben Yehudah, going to the bars, drinking, and using drugs.  But the ben sorer umoreh might be seen as the kid who goes out every night, leaving the yeshiva for a few hours, to eat, and to eat more, all on his parents’ plastic.  Vehamevin yavin [he who understands, will understand].  
R. Yisroel Blumenfeld:  For the past twenty one years, I have had the honor to work with a yeshiva that is very different from most of the institutions that you mehankhim [educators] represent.  I work with Neve Tzion.  Neve Tzion is a second chance yeshiva.  We take boys that other places will not take.  One young man said this at the grand siyum [celebration at the end of a period of study], where we let everyone express what they have gained throughout the year.  He said, “You know, I came to give God a second chance, and I realized that HaShem [God] was giving me a second chance.”  We are taking the lower thirty percent of the class, the ones who need motivation.  We publicize that we are a place for those who need motivation.  Well, that segment of the class is going to include 90% who have experience with drugs, who are involved with drug use for social reasons.  And we work with it. Can I tell you that we have all the answers, and that I have the approach to work with every young person who is involved in substance abuse?  I can’t tell you that.  Every year, every zman [semester], I go through the agonizing effort of trying to determine the best approach.  We are always evaluating, initiating, innovating.  We don’t know.  It is a very difficult problem; it is a very serious problem.  I can tell you one thing.  Totally objective people have told me something.  Some of the most sincere, the most devoted, talmidim [students], some of the biggest masmidim [persevering students], and the greatest lamdanim [learners] in the Mir Yeshiva, in Lakewood, in Yeshiva University, were boys that I personally know had seriously drug problems when they first came to Eretz Yisrael [Israel].  Some of the foremost educators who are reaching out to the at-risk teenager today, are talmidim of ours who had their own problems when they were in yeshiva.  
It should be known that some of the people who are most at-risk are sometimes the most sensitive.  They can be very intellectual.  Very often they are projecting the hatred and anger which they feel toward their parents – either because of abuse, or what they perceive as abuse – or against a particular teacher, instructor, rebbe, or sometimes just at the system.  They project that anger on Torah.  Once you can help them appreciate that, they discover themselves.  They discover their roots, and they change their lives.  It is one of the most dramatic and inspiring things to be a part of.  
We are not unique, in that the problem is more pervasive than we know, or perhaps are willing to admit.  From what my boys tell me - and they have no reason to fabricate - the problem of substance abuse is extremely widespread.  It is in yeshivas – we are not going to mention any names of course – but very, very prestigious yeshivas.  There are a greater number of problem students than the rebbeim there are aware of.  If a yeshiva or girls’ school is not aware of the problem, than I believe that there is some degree of negligence.  Perhaps we need to know the symptoms.  We need to identify it.  
I was told by the mashgiah of a very prominent yeshiva in the States, that we, Neve, spoil our boys, because they can’t get along without a rebbe!  We spoil our boys!  They come to a big yeshiva, and they are great learners, but they can not get along without a rebbe.  I think he is making a mistake.  I think his talmidim also need a rebbe.  They need someone to talk to.  We can not afford the luxury of teachers presenting Torah without knowing and identifying the child and his needs.  We are living in a different world.  Hamatzil nefesh achas beyisrael, ke’ilu kiyyam olam maleh [He who saves a Jewish life, it is as if he saved an entire world, based on Mishnah Sanhedrin, 4:5].  I was once thinking about this, and I had this insight. I think that it has a certain amount of truth to it.  Hazal [the Sages] are not just telling us the great reward for someone who saves a young person’s life.  Hazal are telling us the direction, the way to reach this person.  Treat him like an entire cosmos, a whole universe.  He or she is a whole universe.  When you know a child like that, and you can work with a child like that, then you can save a child’s life.  I do not know of any institutions today that have the luxury of saying, “We don’t have such students.”  Therefore this conference, and the follow up, is of extreme value to the Jewish people.  
A young person who lacks motivation most often also lacks a strong self-image.  This is a very prevalent problem, at least among the young people who we work with.  Almost all of the students lack self-esteem.  It could be that they have baggage from home; they have difficult family situations.  It could be that they have had negative experiences in the one or two schools that they have attended (and sometimes four or six schools).  It could be that they were just looked down upon because they didn’t fit into the mold.  Maybe they dressed a little bit differently at one time.  In any event, they come with baggage.  They come with this feeling of being rejected.  I should mention also that some of them have other kinds of problems.  They have learning disabilities, or they are just not high achievers.  Maybe fifteen or twenty years ago, you would still tow the line if you felt rejected.  A parent whose son had come to our yeshiva spoke to me a short while ago.  He had been thrown out of another yeshiva.  He had a reason for being bitter.  He had lost his father from a disease when he had been a young person.  He was very bitter and into drugs.  He turned out to be probably the most successful talmid we had the whole year, the best learner.  By the second year, he was a very, very successful talmid.  His mother told me that Everyone is talking about it in America.  All the yeshivas are becoming more elitist.  “We want only the outstanding applicants, the most excellent type of boy.  We are upgrading, so we are only taking the top students.”  Someone from a seminary told me they are only taking girls with a certain SAT score.  What does that have to do with making a bas yisrael [Jewish woman], making a vibrant Jewish young lady?  Everyone is talking about all the schools becoming more elitist.  We seem to think that everybody belongs in exactly the same mold.  R. Scheinman, one of the gedolei hador [leaders of the generation], is telling us that it is not true.  We have to be responsive to that.  
Once the problem is identified, how do you relate to these young people?  I once had a boy who didn’t show up at all the first week.  He didn’t come to my class.  So I came into the dormitory, and I sat down on his bed.  I said, “Are you feeling better?” So, he looked at me and said, “Who told you I was sick!?”  I saw right away that he had an attitutde [laughter].  First of all, students call me “The Mash” over there [instead of the more formal and respectable Mashgiah] because there can’t be any distance, not with these type of people.  I said, “You impressed me as being an intelligent young man, who came here to accomplish.  If you don’t come to class, you must be sick.  So I came to see how you are feeling.”  He didn’t say that much afterwards.  But he came the next day, and the day after that.  And today he is a rebbe, he is the rebbe in a big institution, and all the boys who have problems come to speak to him because of what he experienced.  There is another boy that was a genius at finding out innovating ways of doing things wrong [laughter].  I went one day, and I got very frustrated.  So, I wrote him a personal letter. I told him, “Look, you are such a great guy.  If only you would use your talents for Torah.  But, look! How long can I turn the other way?  Please help me.  When are you going to take life seriously?”  He showed me that letter about ten years later, after he was married, had a family, became a successful person, and became very much involved in NCSY, and all kinds of kiruv [outreach] and so forth.  He told me that that was the changing point.  What was it?  It was simply unconditional love.  That’s all.  I just broke my heart to him.  That’s all.  That does not mean that at any time I condoned, or the yeshiva condoned, what they were doing.  Our boys are not shomer negiah [follow the laws relating to separation between the sexes].  We don’t condone it.  We are not going to throw you out for it.  We will have rap sessions.  We will talk to you.  We are going to do many things.  We don’t condone it.  But we accept you as a person.  
President Navon once came to Neve, and he took me aside and he asked me, “What’s the secret?  The guys like it here.  There is no distance between students and administration here.”  I told him that it is very simple.  We, as rebbeim, are trained to find what each boy has.  Something special in him, something valuable.  We communicate that to him, make him appreciate it, and make him know that we appreciate it.  As Rabbi Ebner said, it is not so hard to convince him that the marijuana is taking away his drive and his motivation.  You can probably convince him of the harmfulness of drugs without being that well educated.  Even a short talk with Yonah can give you the background that you need to convince them.  But only if you have the trust.  The trust!  It is not for nothing that the mitzvah [commandment] of talmud Torah [Torah study] is specificially from the father to the son, because that is the epitome that personifies that trust.  The mesorah [tradition] of Torah sheba’al peh [the Oral Torah] must include that trust.  I often tell my rebbe, Rav Wolbe, of some of the things that we do.  I told him that, unfortunately, we do have boys who go to Ben Yehudah.  (They know what we think of Ben Yehudah.  When we take them on trips to the Dead Sea, I tell them that this is the lowest inhabited place on earth, accept for The Underground [a Jerusalem bar] [laughter]. Rav Wolbe said, “If your talmidim are on Ben Yehudah, then you have to have rebbeim there too.  And not just to go by, but to talk to them and to work with them.”  
As I said, I hope that I am not wasting your time because a lot of this doesn’t apply to the type of institutions that you come from.  But, you can work with this kind of young person.  You can change this person’s life.  You will find the most challenging and the most rewarding experience in doing so.  But we have to understand that not everybody is going to fit into the yeshivish mold.  Not everybody is going to learn Rav Hayyim lomdus [abstract analysis of Talmud].  There have to be alternatives: alternative schools, alternative education, alternative projects.  I think that we should network and work on alternatives.  
We have to work together with the professionals.  Our yeshiva could not do what it does without what Yonah is doing in his counseling, and what other counselors are doing.  And this year we even have a psychologist who has seventeen years experience in rehab.  He sits with the boys in the afternoon and he talks to them.  He started something new this year, which is extremely effective: a group therapy kind of thing.  (Va’ad [informal meetings between students in some mussar yeshivas, in which students worked with each other on their spiritual growth]: group therapy came from va’adim.   The va’ad is working together on tikun hamidos [improving character traits].)  We called it “The Group,” and it has become very prestigious to be a part of it.  They are helping each other come out of some very difficult psychological, and perhaps psychiatric, problems, and become functioning people.  
Working with the professionals is one half of it.  But we are only successful when we can get the boys into learning.  When boys get into the learning, and it becomes a part of them, then when they continue, and have a relapse, they know to go back to learning.
I will conclude with this, just to give an idea of the potential.  We did do some  research, and I think that any institution along the same lines would probably have the same kind of results. A third of our talmidim become very fine functional benei Torah [proper religious Jews].  Another third get their act together.  They resolve their substance problems, become Shabbat observant.  And another third, we have not yet reached them.  But it can be done.  [applause].
Mrs. Solow: Questions will be taken.
Simi Peters:  My name is Simi Peters, and I am a teacher.  Do you ever give up?  Is there ever a situation in which you say, “This kid is not going to make it, and he is dangerous”?  Do you ever give up? 
R. Blumenfeld: We never give up on the person.  But sometimes we feel that we are not capable of working with the person.  At the beginning of the year, we had two boys who were involved in providing substances for other people, facilitating substances.  I don’t think they came with suitcases; they were not professional drug dealers.  But they were asked to leave.  At the same time as I asked them to leave, I called another place and told them the situation.  I followed up on it, and they are both successful in this other place.  There was at time when a boy came for a few months.  We saw that he needed rehab, and he was not ready for yeshiva.  We said that we could not handle him.  It is not that we give up on the person, it is just that we do not have the facilities for his problems. 
Yehudit Spero (Midreshet Moriah): Practially, how do you network?  We are all here today.  How do you do it?  It would be a shame for this to end just like that.  We would all say, “What a wonderful conference it was.  Great dinner,” and then we will not network. How do we do it?
R. Ebner: R. Saks has heard your question [laughter].  We reminded everybody to sign in.  The truth is, on the issue of networking, we are open to anybody who has ideas.  Only a few people planned this conference.  But now there are a lot of people thinking about the same thing.  We should all be part of this.  I suggest that R. Saks be a good clearinghouse for this.  
R. Blumenfeld:  I was going to say a little about at-risk teenagers.  A mother contacted me.  She has a problem, but it is with her daughter, and Neve caters only to men.  Maybe there should be a bank of all the different yeshivas and schools, with information about what they are willing to accept, and so forth.  It took me some research and time before I found one or two places to suggest.  But if we had such a bank, it would help facilitate one way of networking.  
R. Pinchas Langer (Mikhlelet Neve Daniel): Many of your directions are very sensitive and very warm.  I would like to raise a question on a larger vein.  I am basically hearing that there is a specific group of kids with problems. You are discussing the issues of how to deal with specific kids with these specific problems. Perhaps, however, in a much larger way, the problems that are affecting this particularly group most manifestly, are present in every school for just about every one of the kids, more or less: whether it is alienation, self-identity, self-esteem, or integration.  Maybe we need a revolution in terms of Torah Im Derekh Eretz [Torah and the way of the land, literally].  We might want to recreate a curriculum moving away from text, a curriculum dealing with helping an individual integrate into society within Torah.  Most often, the messages that I hear on this topic are taught in passing within the yeshiva.  Someone once mentioned to me that everyone wants to create a mentsch [upstanding moral person].  But how do you do that?  Most people talk around this issue, but they don’t talk directly at it.  These issues are not mentioned in the educational statements; these issues are not being dealt with directly within the curriculum.  We are assuming that the kids will be able to integrate that on their own.  Perhaps all students are at-risk within the society that we live in today, which is so open and so exposed to everything.  We need to rethink much of our curriculum and many of our goals. 
R. Ebner:  I would say briefly, that you are probably right, Pinchas.  But right now, at this conference, we are talking about triage.  Often when people say, “Lets solve everything” they don’t solve anything.  Right now, we are dealing with a situation that is, to some extent, coming out of the closet.  People are willing to talk about it.  I’m all for creating a mentsch.  I think it is a very good idea.  I would be more than happy to talk to you about it.  Bur right now I think we have to limit ourselves to what we are talking about.  I’m not sure that we can start with the grand plan.  We have to start right here, building up.
Dr. Peyser:  Perhaps this might be making a mistake in the opposite direction.   There is not one model for everyone.  Personally, I don’t think that when you are talking about issues of substance abuse and alcohol abuse, that all kids are experiencing the same thing.  There are different levels of difficulty and pathology.  It’s true.  There are certain basic issues of identity that all the students are dealing with.  But, as I listen to R. Blumenthal and the population he describes, I’m sure that every school has some students like that.  It sounds like your school has much more than other schools.  As I listen, it reinforces my sense that, just as in the regular school system there are different high schools – some that are vocational, some that are scholastic, some that are therapeutic – so too, there need to be different schools that address different populations.  I’m glad that such a school exists.  And I’m also glad that there is a wide range of schools available.  Obviously, you are talking about a broader educational issue.  But, it is not true that every student is struggling with these kind of issues.  There is severe pathology, lesser pathology, ordinary identity issues.  
R. Dovid Refson (Neve Yerushalayim): In planning any follow up to this conference, I think that we have to define the agenda much more precisely than it was defined today.  I was with Yonah in America a couple of months ago.  We had a two-day meeting there that was extraordinarily successful because the agenda was very clear.  Everybody knew beforehand exactly what we were supposed to achieve in the two days.  While it is a great pleasure to network, as a prerequisite for any further meetings we have to be very clear about what we are trying to achieve, and what the purpose would be of getting together.
R. Boaz Mori (BMT): Last session the question of prevention was raised.  The professionals did not answer it.  The question was raised: how can we prevent this problem, or keep it limited? Maybe the people working in the field could help answer it.  Do you have any suggestions about how we can prevent the problem, or keep the problem from getting out of proportion?
Benjamin Robinson (Youth in Crisis) [in answer to Mori’s question]:  The confrontation with those who have problems can work effectively.  In our program, we host homeless youth and youth with addiction problems.  They come daily for a meal and support.  Simultaneously, we have seminary girls and yeshiva students who help serve the food.  During their afternoon of hesed [community service] they interact with the youth who have really slid down to the bottom.  They learn so much.  While being in a safe environment, they actually see and are exposed to the consequences of those who slide far away from us.  You see it on the students’ faces: “Wow!  I have got to stay away from this.”  Exposing the youth in the beginning of the year to what is out there, what the consequences are, would help in prevention.  For instance, invite those who had the experience, and who came back to reality, to speak to the students.  Or, do hesed in those places where, in a safe environment, they can experience the consequences of all kinds of addictions and other kinds of problems.  We are more than welcome to facilitate this in any way possible.
R. Blumenfeld:  Six years ago, when Dr. Twersky had the first conference, I asked a similar question.  I asked whether these issues should be confronted by the yeshiva high schools in the States.  That is where the talmidim are coming from.  That is where they experiment in recreational whatever. That is where they get into drug abuse.  He said, “Of course!  But the high schools are not willing to discuss it yet.”  That is where the prevention really belongs, at the younger ages.  What the kids are doing today in eighth grade, they used to do in twelfth grade.  Now they do it in eighth or ninth grade.  We have to get some kind of preventative education at the high school level to try to sole the problem.  
David Katz (MMY): Our goal is to try to come up with some short-term solutions, triage, to try and solve the problem.  What I have been hearing – if I am not wrong – is that the majority of our institutions are not equipped, prepared, interested in dealing with it.  It is good that we can network, and discover which institutions are able to do so.  I fear that only a few schools can.  We are all now aware of the institutions that are prepared to deal with it.  Whenever I get frustrated in school, I always say that it is schools like that which are going to get into Olam HaBa [the World to Come].  What I’m doing is my small little thing, which isn’t that critical in life.  The question is.  What can I do?  I run a girl’s school.  For better or for worse, I’m not equipped, prepared, or interested in dealing with substance abuse.  I’m going to move a problem student on, either by kicking her out and letting my teachers pick up the pieces, or by whatever other tactics I use.  My goal as a Jewish educator is not to lose the neshamah [soul], and to somehow see her dealt with properly.  So I am going to forward her. How can we facilitate that, and make it happen, rather than sit around and talk about whether we should or shouldn’t deal with it, when we are not going to?
Raquel Sanchez (Rose Institute): I am the current director of the Rose Institute.  We work with street kids in Jerusalem.  Years ago we had a much bigger problem with kids who were kicked out of yeshivas and who became homeless.  We had to deal with parents, and with getting them into rehab, or into other yeshivas, or back to America.  I find this conference wonderful.  I see a lot of people who have become much more aware over these few years, and are becoming much more kind to the situation.  Regarding the question that you raised: if somebody has Hepatitis B in your school, they will get a shot.  Not only will they get a shot, but everybody else in the school will also get a shot.  Everybody is really happy.  The thing is that drug addiction is not just a psychological problem.  It is also a medical problem.  Sometimes kids are not misdiagnosed, or are not assessed properly.  As just about everybody has been saying, they may have a learning disability, Attention Deficit Disorder, or some allergy to foods.  (They are now recognizing the some allergies can cause a learning disability.)  The most important thing is that we become aware that the schools may not be properly equipped.  There is no shot for this.  Professionals - medical doctors, psychologists, and social workers - have to be a part of this.  There needs to be a solution that is inclusive of other professionals.  There needs to be more money in order to take care of a population that is really infected.  That is the entire population.  No one is exempt from drug addiction, or the possibility of it.  
Jacky Goldman (Ramah Programs): We all know that the best teacher is the special ed teacher.  If we could take what we see special ed teachers doing with their special needs kids, and apply those kinds of techniques to the mainstream kids, then we are going to get a lot more positive results.  I don’t think that R. Blumenfeld is the only one in Neve who goes and sits on the bed of a boy who does not come to school.  That is prevention.  I work with high school kids, and I have a different issue when they are under eighteen.  If there is a drug issue, can we keep them in Israel or not?  When I first started working for Ramah, I was involved in the acceptance process.  We did not accept kids with anorexia.  We did not accept kids with eating disorders.  We were very hesitant to accept a kid with diabetes unless we had all kinds of information that the kid was able to take care of him or her self.  We were very reluctant to take any kid with any disorder.  There was a lot more lying on the applications than there is now.  We are now known as an organization that takes kids as long as we feel able to take care of them.  We will write a letter and say, “You say you have an eating disorder.  Please get this information and that information, etc.” And we will talk with the parents.  
I have some suggestions for the future.  We work with Orthodox, Conservative, and community schools.  One of the things that we do when we are working with community schools, is that I, as the guidance counselor, get on the phone with the schools’ guidance counselor, and say, “Tell me about your kids.”  Who has a mother with cancer?  Who has a sibling with problems?  Who has a friend who committed suicide?  I don’t ask those questions specifically, but those are the kinds of things we learn about the kids.  Then we can help them.  That does help lead to prevention, because, as Caroline said, when kids are away from home, it is a very traumatic time in their lives.  When they have a rebbe, or a somebody who is interested in what they are doing with their lives, it may matter to them what that person thinks of them, and it may keep them out of danger.  
One other thing I was thinking about was yimei ‘iyyun [day long study programs] for kids. It could be a shabbaton [weekend retreat] in America.  When you go to recruit, you might have a shabbaton with your students.  Or, it might be something that you do here: yimei ‘iyyun that show the teshuvah from Rav Moshe.  Sit and learn with the kids, and give them the respect that sometimes they don’t even know they deserve.  
Miriam Reisler (Midreshet Lindenbaum):  I was working in a high school in the US last year, and we were beginning to talk about where different kids were going to go in Israel.  When you look at a whole class of kids, one of the things that becomes apparent is that not every kid is suited for a year of study in Israel. Some kids have learning disabilities.  Some kids are underachievers.  Other kids are angry at yiddishkeit [Judaism].  There are all kinds of reasons why not all kids should be in schools in Israel.  Some of them are very bright.  From a multiple intelligence point of view, some of them are very talented.  But going for a year in Israel is not appropriate for them.  Yet, because of peer pressure, because of parent pressure, because of other reasons, they end up here.  I would guess that those kids are at a significant risk of getting involved in drugs.  These are kids who are in a place that they don’t want to be.  They are far away from home.  They don’t have very many responsibilities.  They are not feeling very good about themselves, because they are destined for a year to do something that they can’t really succeed at.  That, I think, is a very big problem.  Even though I recognize that the goal of this conference is triage, I wonder if perhaps we should begin taking a longer view here.  There should be programs for students for whom learning for a year is not appropriate.  I have worked with students who have different ability levels, and some kids who have weaker intellectual capabilities can get involved in projects which are less cognitively oriented.  They can be volunteer help.  They can do all kinds of wonderful things.  You can have a kind of work-study program, where learning is part of their program, but where the kids actually have responsibility for something.  For a kid who sees learning as a responsibility, a year of study is a great thing.  Some kids will come to see learning as a responsibility.  I am thrilled that that happens to kids during their year in Israel.  But that is not a possibility for some kids.  I would like to put them in a situation where they can assume responsibility, can feel good about themselves, can be in Israel for the year, and can be exposed to learning in different portion of the day.  I don’t see why this isn’t a forum to get such a program off the ground.  
R. Yehoshua Liff (Ner Ya’akov): Two points I just want to share with you, hindsight being 20/20.  One is, in order to get to that Ohel Nefesh conference a couple of months ago, there were many years of conferences and workshops set up by Nefesh [International Network of Orthodox Mental Health Professionals], JACS [Jewish Alcoholics, Chemically Dependent Persons, and Significant Others] and a variety of yeshivas.  Every question that I heard raised today became a workshop.  The individual mehankhim got together to work issues out.  They wrote a position paper that was then talked about.  This was many many years of work.  I would be happy to share the material that has been developed in the States.  But I think you will have to work out your own materials, because there are some cultural and individual differences that need to be raised, including the dumping of our American problems on you in Israel.  
The other issue I would like to raise relates to the tremendous tool which R. Blumenfeld mentioned.  We have done this in the States through JACS.  Very good things happen when mehankhim and students have an opportunity to talk to people who are in recovery from drug and alcohol abuse.  One of the greatest rewards that you could have is when you see somebody turn their life around.  First of all, it is an educational tool for people who are not aware of the problem.  It gives you an image of what you are working for.  You see someone who tells you he was doing all the terrible things you were talking about, and today he is whatever he is.  Through Yonah, maybe that can be arranged.  As an in-service for educators, we could get some input from recovering people, from the talmidim themselves.  Hatzlahah Rabbah [I wish you success]. 
R. Natan Seigel (Yeshivat Bat Ayin): Our yeshiva generally gets people who have flown in, usually without a ticket [laughter].  We do a lot of creative things: we meditate; we dance; we sing; we do poetry; we do hisbodedus [retreat into oneself]; we treat Rav Kook like a hassidishe Rebbe; we really daven; Kabbalas Shabbes [Friday evening prayers] really rocks.  But it would be presumptuous to assume that these modalities are appropriate for everyone.  I think that that is true, but I would never say it. [laughter].  But, I would like to share with you a new technique – technique is the wrong word – a new program that we have started this year that I think does transfer to almost every yeshiva.  (Although my image is a men’s beit midrash [study hall], but I don’t think that that is exclusive.)  We see ourselves as a very spiritual place, but we would rather not use that word because everybody else uses it.  So we see ourselves as an avodas HaShem [service of God] yeshiva.  Before minhah [afternoon prayer] twice a week for twenty minutes, we have what clinicians would call peer review.  We call it avodas HaShem hevruta [study in pairs]. Hevrutot of two guys sit with each other and talk about their service of God. How is my avodat HaShem progressing?  What do I want?  They do it seriously.  They have lists.  They yardstick, and they update.  Twice a week for twenty minutes.  Among the faculty, we find that they come back to us with increasing demands to meet their needs.  Sometimes it dovetails with issues of where their neshamah is at. 
R. Yehoshua Leff (Ner Ya’akov): I would like to thank ATID for giving us all the opportunity to show up, and to interface and network [applause].  Number one, I was also involved in the Nefesh conference last year in the United States.  It was also fascinating.  It is fascinating to see how everyone here could join in, above board, to recognize that we should not brush the problem underneath the carpet.  Let’s bring it out.  Let’s not just talk about it.  Let’s do something about it.  
	Number two, as far as the issue of networking, we are the poorer cousins of our American counterparts.  We need resources.  Most of the institutions here are tuition based; their resources are meager.  In the United States, you have a lot more social services which you can tie into.  It would be helpful to have a meeting of the minds about how to have more social service networking.  It would help create the ability to tie in with the professionals across the board, instead of just individual institutions using their individual professionals.  It would help us a lot.  
	Number three, as far as resources.  We consider ourselves an institution which is involved with at-risk students; I am very proud to be part of that group.  We need to know not only the institutions which cater to this population, but also the personnel who work in the institutions.  If ATID would be brave enough, as has been suggested, it could organize a list of those institutions which are involved with students at-risk, and a list of their personnel.  It could be sent out to all the participants in the conference.  It would be beneficial.  
This last thing comes from the vantage point of a boy’s institution involved with at-risk kids.  We had a student one year who I had met during the interviews in November.  He had a lovely face and lovely features, and was very bright; he looked wonderful.  Then, when he arrived, I was not sure if he was coming to a boy’s institution or to a girl’s institution because of the length of his hair.  It was very carefully braided. He was a changed young man, as far as I could see.  He was changed to the degree that he was definitely involved in substance.  We have to realize this about many of the kids.  The danger signs might have been there before, but they were not really recognizable.  As they get closer to their year in Israel , they are starting to push the gates.  They are starting to experiment more.  We, as mehankhim, have to recognize this.  The eighteenth year, getting away from home, coming to Israel, is a crucial point.  The summer is a time when they are really experimenting very heavily.  They are looking forward to coming to Israel to continue the experimenting.  For some of them, it is beginning to become an abuse issue.  We have to recognize that the first few weeks and months are crucial time periods. We should not jump the gun, and we should somehow hold ourselves back from cracking the whip.  It could very well be a deciding factor.  It may cost a young man or young lady the opportunity to become a nice, wonderful Jewish young man or Jewish young woman.  Thank you. 
Shonny Solow: Each of our panelists will have a few minutes to respond now.  Let’s start in the reverse order.
R. Blumenfeld: The issue of prevention was raised. I personally know that this issue needs more research.  Perhaps professionals could present a program discussing the dangers of drug abuse, of experimenting and so forth.  They could discuss this at the beginning of the year in both the men’s and women’s institutions.  Would that help?  Maybe we should be more out in the open.  Perhaps we should try to do our own preventative work.  That is something that should be researched and discussed among the yeshivas, and among the professional people
	The second thing. To envision changes in the curriculum of yeshivas and girls’ schools is very revolutionary, and probably beyond our scope.  We need gedolim [Torah leaders] for that.  But, I would suggest that very often we find a young person that has different needs.  We try to set up extra programs on an individual basis for them.  We have different people in kollel [yeshiva programs for older students], or individual people working within the framework.  We try to find resources for these people.  Sometimes that can make the difference in the person’s success.  
Finally, what R. Liff said about resources. It is true that yeshivas have limited resources.  It would be helpful if a fund were available, to provide therapy for those talmidim who need it.  They need professional service.  Sometimes it is not received due to lack of funding.  Sometimes the parents’ insurance does not cover it.  If there would be funds to give the proper psychological, psychiatric, or whatever other service is needed, that would be a tremendous asset to the yeshiva.  So, those are the three things that I would like to suggest.

R. Ebner:  R. Refson brought up a very good point.  That is, where does it go from here, or will it go from here?  I think that we have all been at conferences of one sort or another which have been interesting, but have petered out.  The best I could say to that is this.  As educators, we all must bear in mind what the Alter of Nevardok used to say.  That is, you sow everywhere, and you reap where it grows.  Of course, we hope that something will grow from this.  Right now, we are in the sowing stage.  Perhaps something will come of this.  That is one of the reasons this conference was held: to try to see if there was enough interest in the problem in general; to try to see if that interest could be focused; to see if people would even show up.  People obviously did show up.  Where will it go from here?  We will see.  Rav Hutner used to explain the pasuq [verse], “Lekhu vanim shimeu li” [go sons, hear me, Tehillim 34:12].  Shouldn’t it say, Bau vanim, shimeu li [come sons, hear me]?  He talks about the feeling that talking to certain talmidim in the yeshiva was like talking to the wall.  After the student left the yeshiva, when he was no longer in the yeshiva, R. Hutner could understand that something was being heard.  I agree.  But you have to try.  We all understand that.
	As far as the question of standardized yeshivas and different approaches, I think that it is very valuable. You have to know what kind of students you have in the yeshiva and respond appropriately.  The idea of “The Group” that the Mashgiah spoke about, or the avodas HaShem session that you have.  These ideas are appropriate for those environments.  If we think we have problems, when the first yeshiva was established in Nevardok by the Alter of Nevardok, he brought the ‘Arukh HaShulhan, who was the Rav in Nevardok, to see the yeshiva.  The Arukh HaShulhan had been a talmid in Volozhin, and he had never been in a mussar yeshiva, and certainly never in Nevardok.  And he happened to come at the time that the bourse, the group therapy sessions, were going on.  And the Alter of Nevardok said, “This is our yeshiva.”  The Arukh HaShulhan said, “What!?  This is a beis meshuga’im! [insane asylum]”  [laughter].  The students were yelling at each other.  (I mean, even if you only read Haim Grade you would have some idea.  If you know something about Nevardok, than you understand.)  The Alter said to him, “Precisely.  We take crazy people and we make them sane.”  But, it should also be pointed out that this is not for everybody.  Because in the history of Nevardok – lets say that everybody who came in was crazy, but there were some who came out crazier. [laughter].  You have to know who you are dealing with.  
This leads into the third and last comment I want to make.  The new schools.  I certainly don’t feel that a yeshiva is for everybody.  The demands in some of the men’s and women’s yeshivas are often quite difficult to live up to.  Even the name yeshiva means, sit.  For many people, it is very difficult to sit.  Originally, only an occasional student came for the experience of the year of yeshiva in Israel. Many who came, at least from America, went to Hakhsharah [A B’nei Akiva sponsored work-study program].  They did very little frontal Jewish studies.  Today, going to a program like that has become, unfortunately, a statement about failure, about not getting into the right kind of place.  Maybe there has to be somebody who would take it upon himself to start such a school.  It is unlikely that ATID is going to start a school.  But maybe there is going to be somebody in ATID, or who has come in contact with ATID, or has heard, who would want to start such a school, and would take that upon himself or herself.  It is certainly needed.  
Dr. Peyser:  I will just re-iterate about the importance of having mental health professionals on staff.  There are some schools – and Midreshet Lindenbaum is one of them – that actually employ a mental health professional who has regular office hours.  That sends a message.  Practically, students know where to go.  But, this also sends a message about openness and a willingness to deal with mental health issues, and about realizing the fact that mental health issues are a part of being here for a year.  Some students will want to go speak to a mental health professional.  There is also the mashgiah to talk to.  There are also teachers or administrators.  But some will chose to speak to a mental health professional, and that is ok.  That is part of what is changing: the willingness to talk about this.  I know that every school has the professionals that it works with, sort of behind the scenes.  But we should bring some of those professionals more into the forefront. In-service training for staff and for madrikhim and madrikhot is also very important.   That is one point that I would make.
	The second point, which is related, is parent involvement.  We have all been talking about substance abuse problems, and how yeshivot deal with it.  It is important that parents be involved in the decision-making process, and also be alerted to the problem.  Some of them might not be aware of their childrens’ problems.  Some were aware and sent the child knowing.  But I think that the parents have to be involved, especially in the decision of where the treatment is going to take place. 
Concluding Remarks
R. Saks (Director, ATID): Yonah Pollak said earlier that we are each other’s best resources.  I believe that.  You may disagree with me, but Hinukh [education] can be a very isolating profession.  Those that work in the classroom, go into the classroom and close the door behind them.  They have very little peer support through which to look back critically at themselves.  This is also true of those who work outside the classroom.  Whether we call it networking or interfacing – whatever term has been bantered about today – I think that it is crucial that we should come together to discuss these topics.  We should come together to speak about substance abuse, or any other topic of common interest.  We may work in different settings or in different schools, or even outside of schools.  We realize that the students that are appropriate for one institution are wholly inappropriate for another.  Still, those of us who share a certain common set of interests – professional interests, ideological interests, philosophical interests, personal interests –there is value that we discuss issues together.  Not because we will agree to work together on a task force that will solve the problem.  But because we will disagree about what the solution is.  Because a solution that may be right for one will be wrong for someone else, and vice versa.  But together, we will return stronger to whatever institution we came from, and better equipped to deal with what we are going to meet tomorrow morning.
	We are very grateful to all of you.  And we were very surprised.  When we initially planned the conference, we wondered how many people would come to such a thing.  How many people would be brave enough to come to such a program?  We are very grateful to all of you who have joined us today and this evening.  ATID is committed to serve as a clearinghouse, as a resource, or as a meeting ground for educators to get together to talk about the issues of common concern.  If there will be an interest, ATID will be very happy to serve as the central body to coordinate the effort.  Yonah has already volunteered, has already agreed to be involved.  If you are interested in continuing, in a formal way, the discussions that have begun today - to move toward issues of policy, to move toward a more concretized agenda - we will be very happy to facilitate that.  I encourage you to contact us if you are interested.  I would also be very appreciative for any feedback or suggestion, and would be glad to hear from anybody who is interested in getting involved in our activities, which usually focus on issues very unrelated to some that were discussed today.  
	I would just end with very deep thanks to all who participated and worked towards making this event successful.  I will conclude with one thing that we all do agree on.  There is a certain core to each educational vision, to each set of goals; a certain common denominator which we all strive for;  which we hope we will be successful in imparting to our children and to our students.  “Vetalmidim, harei hem kevanim” [students are like our own children].  This shared value is expressed in the words of the Tanhumah in Shemini [Siman 11]:  Lo kesimhat hayayin – or any other substance – hamitzvot vehaTorah.  Ki hayayin, kesheyatza megufo, hayagon ba belibo.  Zeh yotze vezeh ba. VehaTorah vehamitzvot hu ha’oneg vehasimkhah be’oloam hazeh ube’olam haba, shene’emar, “Ki hu hayyekha ve’orakh yamekhah, be’olam hazeh ube’olam haba shekulo arokh. [The happiness from wine is not the same as that which comes from mitzvah observance and from Torah study.  When wine leaves the body, sadness enters the heart.  One leaves, and the other enters.  But Torah and mitzvot, are the pleasure and happiness in this world, and in the next world.  As it states, “For it is your life, and the length of your days,” both in this world and in the next world, which is eternally long.]  Ken yehi ratzon [may it be God’s will] that we will all continue to have hatzlahah, and remember the extraordinary positive successes that keep us going on a day-to-day basis.  As was mentioned a number of times today, we should all merit to continue our successes in implanting ahavat haTorah [love of Torah] and yirat shamayim [fear of heaven] in the hearts of our students.  May we continue the discussions that have begun today in a way that will be fruitful and helpful to everybody, wherever it is that we may be working. Thank you very much.

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This transcript was prepared by Yoel Finkelman.
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